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I came accross the following passage in my textbook:

ゆとり教育で学校で教える内容が減らされたため、その教育を受けた子供達は常識的に誰でも知っているはずのことでさえ知らないという現象も出てきた。

I can understand the meaning of the sentence, as "Due to the decrease of contents taught at school as a result of ゆとり教育, the phenomenon of children who underwent that education and don't know even things that anyone should commonly know, also happens."

Since 誰でも知っているはずのこと is the object of 知らない I would rather say directly:

誰でも知っているはずのことさえ知らない

Without any "で". i.e., if we were to remove the "さえ", it would apply "を":

誰でも知っているはずのことを知らない

I don't understand what is the function of で here. What am I missing?

よろしくお願いします。

jarmanso7
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    They mean the same thing in this case, but でさえ sounds even more like you are incredulous about the situation to me. And if you were to replace さえ, you would use も, not を. – cats Mar 29 '21 at 20:34
  • @cats, thanks for your insight. Do you mean that 「誰でも知っているはずのことさえ知らない」 is a valid option too? – jarmanso7 Mar 29 '21 at 22:58
  • @cats, why couldn't we use を? I understand that を and も add different nuances, but don't see why を wouldn't be valid. I didn't say "replace" さえ, but "remove" さえ... – jarmanso7 Mar 29 '21 at 23:00
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    Related: [Difference between さえ、でさえ](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/36397/5010) / [さえ vs でさえ ｜ この整理は正しいですか。(English available)](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/38788/5010) – naruto Mar 30 '21 at 02:10
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    @naruto I looked at those links earlier. For me, at least, they were not helpful for this question. Perhaps others are seeing something I'm missing. – user3856370 Mar 30 '21 at 08:27
  • @user3856370 Correct, they are related questions but there is no direct answer. – naruto Apr 01 '21 at 03:03
  • @cats has already gave you the answer for でさえ vs さえ. So I'll answer why it isn't just を. You are correct in saying that you can use を because the preceding clause is the object. However, using さえ makes the object trivial/small/easy/simple (so does も), similar to adding "even". So Aを知らない is "doesn't know A", and Aさえ知らない is "doesn't even know (something as simple as) A". – deeeeekun Apr 04 '21 at 10:24
  • @deeeeekun You are missing the point. I proposed to remove "さえ" from the sentence in order to illustrate how the sentence would look like without "さえ" and how "で" would not make sense alone without "さえ". I'm not trying to replace "さえ" by "を" or any other particle here, and I'm not concerned with they particular meanings. – jarmanso7 Apr 04 '21 at 10:30
  • Yes, で would not make sense without さえ because it serves to emphasize it, like @cats said. My comment was in response to this comment of yours: https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/85837/what-is-the-purpose-of-%e3%81%a7-in-the-following-sentence?noredirect=1#comment138625_85837 – deeeeekun Apr 04 '21 at 10:37

1 Answers1

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In short, でさえ is an alternate form of さえ and means the same thing (though not interchangeable in all syntactic contexts). で here comes with さえ. で does not have its own function (e.g. locational), it simply comes attached with さえ.

Difference between さえ、でさえ explains it well enough (check links and comments).

It's acceptable to say:

  • ことさえ知らない
  • ことでさえ知らない
  • ことを知らない

However, it's much, much less common to say をさえ知らない. The さえ usually replaces the を. (This is similar to how one would say リンゴが好き。ドリアンも好き。 but you wouldn't say ドリアンがも好き.)

/// If you were to completely remove でさえ, you would get:

  • ...誰でも知っているはずのこと知らない...

Which is possible, since dropping certain particles (を in this case) is possible and normal, especially in informal speech.

Sabrina
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    The particle も certainly replaces が. However, も does not necessarily replace を. There are numerous instances of 「をも食べる」 confirmable in online use by what appear to be native speakers: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22をも食べる%22 There are even a few (rare) cases of 「をさえも」 used all together: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22をさえも%22&tbm=bks – Eiríkr Útlendi Sep 14 '21 at 00:58
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    Thanks for the correction, I've edited it out – Sabrina Sep 14 '21 at 01:22
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    `However, you cannot say をさえ知らない...` I think [you can](https://opac.ll.chiba-u.jp/da/curator/900022949/Sh-H0202.pdf). Take a look at 2.1.1. – Skye-AT Sep 14 '21 at 01:27
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    `誰でも知っているはずのこと知らない ... normal` -- You need を in *normal* speech. ここでは普通は「を」が要りますね。The post in the linked page is about dropping particles in 看板 and 標識. – Chocolate Sep 14 '21 at 16:25