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Consider the following usages of ほど:

  1. ほど as a time approximation:

旅は10時間ほどかかるでしょう。

The trip will probably take about ten hours.

  1. ほど as a physical approximation:

そのロープは長さが六メートルほどあります。

The rope is about six meters long.

  1. ほど to demonstrate an "extreme example":

言葉にできないほど素晴らしい。

It's too wonderful for words.

  1. ほど to express "the more _, the more _":

多ければ多いほどよい。

The more, the better it is.

Question: In these example sentences, ほど is being used as the sole particle to mark phrases/nouns. But does using ほど in this way cause other other particles to get dropped? Something like the following:

旅は10時間ほどにかかるでしょう。

そのロープは長さが六メートルほどにあります。

言葉にできないほどに素晴らしい。

多ければ多いほどによい。

or on this last one, perhaps

多ければ多いほどとよい。

Does adding に or と after these ほど's (i) retain the original meaning of these sentences (i.e. adds redundancy), (ii) converts them into some sort of other/new meaning, or (iii) just makes them outright nonsensical?

George
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  • You wouldn't say 旅は10時間[に]{L}かかる without the ほど, so why would you think of adding it in *with* it? – istrasci Nov 28 '22 at 03:02
  • @istrasci I think they meant in the sense of using ほど as noun that becomes an adverb. Like 綺麗　綺麗に　ほど　ほどに – Manab Nov 28 '22 at 03:06
  • Except for 言葉にできないほどに素晴らしい, your "original" sentences are all wrong. – aguijonazo Nov 28 '22 at 09:38
  • 多いほどにいい is also correct like I said in my answer. I've seen this pattern quite a lot. As in "君を思うほどに強く光る" in songs. – Manab Nov 28 '22 at 15:04
  • @aguijonazo: The original sentences are from [IMABI's tutorial on ほど](https://www.imabi.net/hodokurai.htm). – George Nov 28 '22 at 16:05
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    I meant the sentences before "dropping" the particles. Your question is based on an incorrect assumption that each of those sentences had a particle before it was dropped. – aguijonazo Nov 28 '22 at 16:12
  • @Manab - We don't say 多ければ多いほどにいい. – aguijonazo Nov 28 '22 at 16:29
  • Well, the girl group called twice certainly says that pattern https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsK_1XF-iuE TIME: 0:38 – Manab Nov 28 '22 at 22:25
  • @Manab - That doesn’t connect to an adjective like いい. It would require a verb phrase like よくなる. – aguijonazo Nov 29 '22 at 15:24
  • It does connect to an adjective but in a way that fits "minus" and the english lyrics". "The more you worry, the more it's a minus." – Manab Nov 29 '22 at 20:19
  • That's acceptable because マイナス implies a change (マイナスになる). Besides 悩む is a verb. 多ければ多いほどにいい is unidiomatic. – aguijonazo Nov 29 '22 at 23:40
  • @aguijonazo I agree with you that it does not sound idiomatic, but I don't know about being objectively **wrong**. Besides いい also implies よくなる, doesn't it? How does 悩む being a verb relate to the phenomenon itself? – Manab Nov 30 '22 at 23:54
  • @Manab - One is about correlation between two changes (*the more you worry, the worse (something becomes)*) while the other is about correlation between two static attributes. に adds a sense of progression and sounds out of place in the latter. It takes a much greater stretch to read いい as よくなる than to read マイナス as マイナスになる (or 悪くなる). Believe me. – aguijonazo Dec 01 '22 at 01:40

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I don't know the answer for your question, but I can contribute with the information that I have only seen ほどに with the hyperbole meaning ほど to demonstrate an "extreme example" and the ほど to express the more _, the more _

https://ja.hinative.com/questions/1363574

This person has made a similar question and it seems to depend on the use.

My take is that に is used sometimes to show that ほど is working adverbially in the sentence. The thing is that, even in the most thorough textbooks, they do not talk about that.

ほどと on the other hand seems off.

Manab
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