I notice in the pitch / stress or whatever it's oKAA-san and oTOU-san but then it's Oba-san and Oji-san. Why?
I'm not so familiar with this LH HL thing but I think it's:
お母【LH】, お父【LH】
おじ【HL】, おば【HL】
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2You're hearing at least some of them wrong and there's no why about these things. – aguijonazo Jan 22 '23 at 22:24
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[おかあ]{LHL} [おとう]{LHL}、[おじ]{LH} [おば]{LH} ですよ。 – Chocolate Jan 23 '23 at 02:12
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it's oKAA-san and oTOU-san but then it's Oba-san and Oji-san.
お母【LH】, お父【LH】
おじ【HL】, おば【HL】
I think these are incorrect, I'm afraid. In Standard Japanese:
[おかあさん]{LHLLL} [おとうさん]{LHLLL} [おばさん]{LHHH} [おじさん]{LHHH}
i.e. oKAa-san, oTOu-san, oBA-SAN, oJI-SAN
[おかあ]{LHL} [おとう]{LHL}*
[おじ]{LH} [おば]{LH}
*おかあさん, おとうさん, おねえさん, おばあさん etc. are お+かあさん, お+とうさん, お+ねえさん, お+ばあさん (prefix お is attached to かあさん etc.), rather than おかあ+さん, おとう+さん, おねえ+さん, おばあ+さん (suffix さん is attached to おかあ, おねえ etc.)
By the way, (as you may know,) the pitch of the suffix ～さん depends on the pitch of the final sound (or mora?) of the preceding word:
[さとう]{HLL} + さん → [さとうさん]{HLLLL}
[たかはし]{LHLL} + さん → [たかはしさん]{LHLLLL}
[ひろこ]{HLL} + さん → [ひろこさん]{HLLLL}
and
[すずき]{LHH} + さん → [すずきさん]{LHHHH}
[やまもと]{LHHH} + さん → [やまもとさん]{LHHHHH}
[ひろみ]{LHH} + さん → [ひろみさん]{LHHHH}
In the same way...
(お) + [かあ]{HL} + さん → ([お]{L})[かあさん]{HLLL}
[おば]{LH} + さん → [おばさん]{LHHH}
In reply to DJ's comment:
The pitch of [おばさん]{LHHH} and [おじさん]{LHHH} change to [おばさん]{HLLL} and [おじさん]{HLLL} when they're attached to a name:
[ひろこ]{HLL} + [おばさん]{LHHH} → [ひろこおばさん]{LHHHLLL}
[たろう]{HLL} + [おじさん]{LHHH} → [たろうおじさん]{LHHHLLL}
Chocolate
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I think it would be good to mention the name+おばさん case since the accent does change there and is probably what the OP was hearing. It doesn’t change for many things like name+社長 and name+先生 so the situation is probably quite confusing for beginners. – Darius Jahandarie Jan 23 '23 at 22:14
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I think most Japanese would say obaSAn ojiSAn or obasaN ojisaN, though [name]-obasan and [name]-ojisan would be [namE]-Obasan and [namE]-Ojisan.
But I think this is usual thing.
Ame+onNA=aMEOnna
Ito+denWA=iTODEnwa
DEnshi+shoseKI=denSHISHOseki
SUtera+obasaN=suteRAObasan
Chance
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Um, none of those are actual compounds, and _sutera_ doesn't appear to be a word...??? – Eiríkr Útlendi Jan 23 '23 at 01:47
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2[ステラ]{HLL}+[おばさん]{LHHH}→[ステラおばさん]{LHHHLLL} になりますよ。[きょうと]{HHLL}+[だいがく]{LHHH}→[きょうとだいがく]{LLHHHLLL} みたいに。 – Chocolate Jan 23 '23 at 01:51
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@Eirikr Utlendi What do you mean? Japanese actually pronounce things like those. Sutera is a name. Japanese change the accent of Sutera, Akira, Yuuko, Kenji and other names before ojisan or obasan, right? – Chance Jan 23 '23 at 01:55
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@Chocolate, 明確化はありがとうございました。複合語ではなくて句レベルでのアクセントですね。とは言えども、Chanceさんの例文に含まれた「[おばさん]{LLLH}」や「[しょせき]{LLLH}」やは存在しない気がしますけれども、この意識は合っていますか？ – Eiríkr Útlendi Jan 23 '23 at 02:14
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1@EiríkrÚtlendi はい、そうですね、[おばさん]{LHHH} [しょせき]{LLHH} ですね。`obaSAn ojiSAn or obasaN ojisaN` は変ですね、[おばさん]{LHHH} [おじさん]{LHHH} なので。他にも `denWA` `onNA` は変ですね、[でんわ]{LHH} [おんな]{LHH} ですし。 – Chocolate Jan 23 '23 at 02:24
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日本語のアクセントの記法について詳しくなくて学術的に間違っていることを書いたようですみません。私の認識では「陣地」の発音ならDEnwa、関西人の「テレビ」の発音ならdeNwa、通常の「電話」はdenWAと記すルールでBCLCさんはやっているのだと思いました。(英語のアクセントに似た考え方) – Chance Jan 23 '23 at 02:36
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私は関西人ですけど、関西弁で電話は「[でんわ]{HHH}」になりますね。標準語では「[でんわ]{LHH}」になります。ところで「陣地」って何ですか？ – Chocolate Jan 23 '23 at 02:39
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1@EiríkrÚtlendi 雨女, 糸電話, 電子書籍 *are* all valid compounds tho…? They are even listed in dictionaries. ステラおばさん is harder to make a grammatical statement about, but it behaves like a compound phonetically. This answer is perfectly fine, just a misunderstanding about notation probably. – Darius Jahandarie Jan 23 '23 at 02:58
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@Chocolate 標準語の陣地のアクセント、関西弁のテレビのアクセント、標準語の電話のアクセントの3つのアクセントについて話しました。この3つは全てアクセントが違うと思います。私が捉えていた記法のルールの上でこの3つがそれぞれどういう記法になるのかを示しました。それによって私がその記法を用いた元のアンサーの趣旨を皆さんが理解するのに役立つと思いました。 – Chance Jan 23 '23 at 03:00
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2「陣地」[じんち]{HLL}は JInchi 、関西弁の [テレビ]{LHL} は teREbi 、というふうに表記する、という話ですね。標準語の「電話」は [でんわ]{LHH} なのに、なぜ deNWA ではなく denWA となるのかわかりませんが… denWA だと [でんわ]{LLH} みたいで変な感じが・・ – Chocolate Jan 23 '23 at 03:14
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@DariusJahandarie, thank you for the sanity check! I wasn't familiar with 雨女 or 糸電話, and they don't appear in one of the online NKD mirrors I use (turns out to be a flub in that mirror's datastore). 電子書籍 is fully understandable, but I didn't view that as a lexicalized compound, and "shoseKI" struck me as entirely bizarre; poking around right now through my resources, only Kojien seems to include 電子書籍 among my dictionaries to hand. This and the odd notation then misled me to view the "SUtera" in the OP as some strange mistaken form like 捨てら; I certainly didn't guess this to be name _Stella_. – Eiríkr Útlendi Jan 23 '23 at 17:53
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1All of 大辞林、大辞泉、三省堂国語辞典、新明解国語辞典、明鏡国語辞典、岩波国語辞典、NHKアクセント辞典 include 電子書籍 as a headword as well. You should update your dicts! :-) – Darius Jahandarie Jan 23 '23 at 22:18
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@DariusJahandarie, FWIW, checking right now for 電子書籍 entries, 新明解第五版 doesn't have it (neither the digital nor hard-copy on my desk), NHKアクセント doesn't have it (neither online nor the iOS version I have, v1.02 but no other edition information available), Daijirin doesn't have it (online version), Shogakukan's 国語大辞典 doesn't have it (online and hard-copy of 新装版). How frustrating. These happen to be my go-to resources, and replacing them isn't cheap. Good to be made aware of the gaps, that's for sure -- thank you! – Eiríkr Útlendi Jan 24 '23 at 19:23
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1@EiríkrÚtlendi If you do end up replacing them I recommend 物書堂 on iOS as it has all the latest editions (and even digital-only updates) of all these dicts and more. – Darius Jahandarie Jan 25 '23 at 11:17
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@DariusJahandarie: Ooo, thank you thank you! Looking into that momentarily... – Eiríkr Útlendi Jan 25 '23 at 17:35