How do I make this sound less direct?

Question

I've tried to translate the following phrase into Japanese, but I feel like it sounds very direct and loses some of the meaning, but I'm not too sure as to where in the sentence I could add to.

Original sentence:

A person who uses mirror pronouns wants to be referred to with the same pronouns as the person talking.

My translation:

ミラープロノウンを使用している人が、話している人の三人称代名詞を使います。

Which I feel translates more closely as "A person who uses mirror pronouns is one which uses the speaker's pronouns." which, though retaining the same meaning, it does feel a little off. Any ideas?

@user3856370 The original page is here if you want to have a look! https://en.pronouns.page/mirror — CtrlAltGr, Feb 10 '22 at 19:30
@user3856370 When you refer to someone who prefers mirror pronouns, you use your own pronouns. So let's say if you are referred to by those who know you as he/him. Then when you talk about mirror pronoun user A, you say "He is over there!". But your friend Jane (she/her) should say "Yes she is!" — Eddie Kal, Feb 10 '22 at 19:31
@everyone I did not intend to stir up any controversy. I was merely trying to understand the example sentence. I am deleting my comments. — user3856370, Feb 10 '22 at 22:25
@user3856370 What I meant to say is simply: please don't hold your tongue if you want to ask; just ask away. I appreciated your question. Sorry if it seems to have caused an adverse effect. Again, I wouldn't worry too much about asking such questions. — Eddie Kal, Feb 10 '22 at 22:31
I wonder what happens when two mirror pronoun users talk to each other... — naruto, Feb 11 '22 at 00:17
@naruto Well, when two people talk to each other third person pronouns don't come up. Of course vocative modes of address may. So gendered modes of address shouldn't be used if the one addressed rejects them. In answer to your question, granted, we can think of a situation where A and B are both mirror pronoun users. B is talking to C about A. For a lot of, maybe most, people with mirror pronouns, the idea is to deconstruct gender binary. So many people have a set of "backup" pronouns they're fine with. "Ze/hir" is an example. If B knows A's pronoun choices besides mirroring, B should use them — Eddie Kal, Feb 11 '22 at 00:40
@EddieKal - Do English speakers understand this sentence with no trouble? I find it very hard to understand and harder still to translate. First of all, “a person who **uses** mirror pronouns” is not the one actually using those pronouns. A third person is. Besides, “the person talking” would use “you” to refer to “a person who uses mirror pronouns” unless they are talking to a third person. Either way, a third person’s involvement is necessary for any “mirror pronouns” to come into the picture, yet the sentence says nothing about it. — aguijonazo, Feb 11 '22 at 08:25
@aguijonazo Well, I can't speak for all native English speakers but this sentence certainly baffles me. It's perfectly grammatical, but from a logic point of view I can't get my head round it at all. Maybe if I was more familiar with gender neutral concepts it would make perfect sense, but as a definition for someone being introduced to the idea of 'mirror pronouns' I'm afraid it falls short. — user3856370, Feb 11 '22 at 08:36
@aguijonazo I think those are some good points. I agree the English sentence in question is not the best definition there is of this concept. I think your objection to "use" is valid but since pronouns are essentially part of someone's gender identity, they are carried with that person, as it were. It's been an accepted practice to say for instance "that person _uses_ male gender pronouns," with "use" pointing to an attribute/part of identity. But I agree, it's confusing. That's why I said in one of my previous comments "people *with* mirror pronouns." Admittedly I also said pronoun users. — Eddie Kal, Feb 11 '22 at 08:40
@EddieKal Ah, I think I get it at last. That use of 'use' really throws you off. So 'use X' in this context means that you refer to yourself as X rather than that you are using X to refer to someone else? I'm now wondering if 使用する is equally as confusing in Japanese? — user3856370, Feb 11 '22 at 08:59
@user3856370, that's not quite it. Since we're talking about third-person pronouns, to say that you "use X" doesn't meant that you "refer to yourself as X," but that you prefer that **others** refer to you as X. So if I'm non-binary and "use they/them/their," that means that I want you to use those pronouns when you refer to me. If I use "mirror pronouns," that seems to mean that when you refer to me, I want you to use the same pronouns you prefer for others to use in reference to yourself. (I say "seems to mean" because this "mirror pronoun" phenomenon is new to me, too, and quite puzzling.) — Nanigashi, Feb 11 '22 at 17:24

naruto · Answer 1 · 2022-02-10T23:25:37.440

The biggest problem of your translation attempt is が. It should never be used to introduce a definition of something (or known characteristics of something in general). That is to say, the first sentence of a Wikipedia article normally contains は or とは, but never が.

ミラープロノウンを使用している人は、話している人の三人称代名詞を使います。
ミラープロノウンを使用している人とは、話している人の三人称代名詞を使う人のことです。

The latter sounds better and explicit as an introduction of a new concept.

There are other minor problems, too. You have no reason to use the teiru-form here. You have ignored "want" and "same". Pronoun is usually プロナウン if you need to katakanize it, but it's hardly understood by average Japanese speakers.

I suggest something like these:

ミラープロナウンを使う人は、話している人と同じ三人称代名詞を使って自分のことを指してほしいと思っています。
ミラー代名詞を使う人とは、話者と同じ三人称代名詞を使って自分のことを指してほしいと考える人のことです。
ミラー代名詞の使用者とは、会話の相手が自らを指すのに使ってほしいものと同一の三人称代名詞を、自分に対しても使ってほしい、と考える人のことです。(free translation, but most comprehensible)

By the way, Japanese speakers don't need gender-specific pronouns like 彼/彼女 at all to speak naturally. I always feel it's an irony that many people who are most concerned with these kinds of problems have to use English, which is not gender-neutral at all as far as personal pronouns are concerned. — naruto, Feb 10 '22 at 23:44
Thank you! Whoops, I didn't notice the misspelling of プロナウン, I have ミラープロナウン as the term, but use 三人称代名詞 to mean third-person pronouns. I understand that third-person pronouns don't often come up within regular Japanese speech, I actually talked about that in https://ja.pronouns.page/english but with the English locale of the site containing mirror pronouns, it felt appropriate to give a definition for concepts which may be unknown to a Japanese-speaking audience. — CtrlAltGr, Feb 11 '22 at 00:48

How do I make this sound less direct?

1 Answers1