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I know it's hard to explicate , so please just tell me the nuance and may be the difference.I am really confused with 「連体修飾」. I even don't know when should I use 「辞書形」　and 「タ」，after I know 「タ」is not just a past tense(also can be 完了形 ),and 「辞書形」can also means sth which haven't been done yet.

such as「洗う服」AND「洗った服」

thanks in advance!

Q1：If possible , i would like to know the difference and nuance in the example a,b,c

*I divided 「動作動詞」　into 3 categories　based on the example in b, in order to know it better.

1.in a：辞書形AND「タ」is perceived as totally the same.

2.in b:there is big difference between辞書形AND「タ」,the verb in 辞書形 haven't been performed yet, and the verb in 「タ」form is already done.

3.in c:辞書形is similar to the situation in a, if we draw a time line, I think the辞書形 in a AND the 辞書形AND「タ」in c is the same ,which indicate the whole life of sth... from past until future.

a：状態を表す動作動詞(which I most would like to know)

「抑制因子を持つその子たちのヴェルズ侵食はとても穏やかだが、彼女たちを人間だと認めない人々数多くいる。」

AND

「抑制因子を持ったその子たちのヴェルズ侵食はとても穏やかだが、彼女たちを人間だと認めない人々数多くいる。」

some people told me that they are almost the same... sentence 1 is more wooden and stilted.

but it's not a 「状態動詞」. why the 「持つ」 cannot be perceived as　the factor which haven't been hold.
just like 動作動詞2.

i thought that ,because it's a 「動作動詞」, it should be the same as the difference between 「洗う服」AND「洗った服」

b：動作動詞2（I think this one, i can understand better but can anyone tell what's the time line for them? thanks）

「洗う服」AND「洗った服」

「洗う服」だけ、横によけておいた　AND　「洗った服」だけ、横によけておいた

c：動作動詞3. 「君の作る料理が美味しい」　AND「 君が作った料理が美味しい」　　

honestly speaking, i also don't know why it is different from b

That's to say, I thought the meaning of 「君の作る料理」 is the food which you haven’t cooked yet but from now you will cook it. And 「君が作った料理が美味しい」　is the food you cook is delicious.

Q2: Are the sentences(1,2,3...) I wrote or I found is as same as the example I put above　(a,b,c,d)
1. same as b

(retrieved from letter song)「今見てるもの　今出会う人 」

my understanding: the phrase above is talking about sth which will happen in the future(including 「ている」), and it doesn't happen yet.

so the translation(please forgive my poor English...) will be 'the things i am meeting in the future and the people I will meet in the future.'

(and I am sure that it doesn't mean that: 「今見ているもの　今出会った人」the things I am meeting now and the people I met before?Am i right... )

2.same as a状態を表す動作動詞

(if so ,then one 「動作動詞」can be put in different categories in different contexts？)

if we change the context, is「出会う人」 possible to be perceived as: the people we met and we will people in our whole life

is it possible to say, with regarding to meaning　　

人生で出会う人は自分の映し鏡
一生で出会う人の数　　

equals　　

人生で出会った人は自分の映し鏡
一生で出会った人の数

3.same as c　　

「ひき肉で作る料理は、何ですか」
4. same as a or b ? 　　　

「挽肉を使った料理で何が1番好きですか」 but why 「使う」cannot be used here just like 「ひき肉で作る料理は、何ですか 」「因子を持つ子供」 if i say:「挽肉を使う料理で何が1番好きですか」, does it share the same meaning with 「タ」version?

Q3：please tell me the difference

1.「漢字の持っている/持つ/持った意味にあたる日本語の読み」　　

if 「持つ」here is put into category a状態を表す動作動詞,

then I guess they are the same when I use「持つ」or　even「持った」 ... so the 「持つ」 here ，
how it is different from

「挽肉を使った料理で何が1番好きですか」

2.「本を読む/読んでいる/読んだ男の子」
should be the same as c.

the boy who reads book/is reading book/read book( in past)

i am just wondering why 「読む」here cannot be perceived as b...the boy who haven't read a book and he is going to read a book.

It would be appreciated if you could share your own opinion.

David XZY
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  • Would you please consider re-writing your question fully in English (apart from the example sentences obviously)? Your section labels あ, い, う, え in particular caused me a great deal of confusion until I realised what you were doing. Thanks. – user3856370 Dec 09 '17 at 15:14
  • I am terribly sorry about that.I tried to improve the format. – David XZY Dec 09 '17 at 16:16

1 Answers1

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a) Although 因子を持つ子 can mean "the child who will have the factor", it usually means the same as 因子を持った子. Another verb of this kind is 含む.

b) 洗う服 is cloths you're going to wash, while 洗った服 is washed ones. So, 洗う服だけよけておいた means that you saved cloths you would wash and doesn't tell if you actually washed it or not. 洗った服… means you first washed cloths then put them aside.

c) 君の作る料理が美味しい and 君が作った料理が美味しい are the same to me because cooking is habitual action, I mean, you can use the former as well to indicate one that's present there.

今見てるもの is a thing you now see. 今出会う人 is a person you're going to meet right away. 今出会った人 is a person you have just met.

一生で出会う人の数 is supposed to equal 一生で出会った人の数 but I don't think 一生で出会う人は人生の写し鏡 says the same thing as …出会った… because there's difference between plan and result.

ひき肉を使う料理 is not different from that of 使った. The latter is a little more common.

漢字の持っている意味 is the same as 漢字の持つ意味, and you don't say 漢字のもった意味 in practice.

The reason why 本を読む男の子 mainly means habitual or on-going action is probably because 読んでいる is wordy for frequently used ones.

user4092
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  • It's very kind of you.if you don't mind my asking, could you please explain 2 more relating points for me? – David XZY Dec 10 '17 at 14:04
  • for example, as you told me before,含むand持つcan have that kind of phenomenon( when use the particle を). so,if i say 漢字を持った意味 then it's equal to 漢字を持つ意味? and may i perceive that as that normally the phenomenon in which the verbs can have almost same meaning no matter using タor 辞書形 like 含む and 持つ only happens when we use を(maybe が　and は　also can, except use of の)?since i cannot say 漢字の持った意味 in practice...so that's due to the particle?and one more question, generally, how I could know whether or not the verb is considered as the group of 含む and 持つ。how about 保つ, thanks in advance. – David XZY Dec 10 '17 at 14:19
  • Do you understand that 漢字を持つ意味 means "reason for having kanji" and 漢字の持つ意味 is the same as 漢字が持つ意味, which is "the meaning that the kanji has"? Anyway, use of particles has nothing to do with preference in use of ta form or dictionary form. It's just matter of practice. Because you say …という意味を持った漢字, otherwise. – user4092 Dec 11 '17 at 09:02
  • I'm thinking that 漢字のもった意味 is wrong because 漢字の持つ意味 is used in generic and non concrete sense while ta form stands for concrete sense. That's why you can say …という意味を持った漢字 nevertheless. Difference between という and といった https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/54332/difference-in-nuance-between-%e3%81%a8%e3%81%84%e3%81%86-%e3%81%a8%e3%81%84%e3%81%a3%e3%81%9f – user4092 Dec 11 '17 at 09:13
  • i think that's also a very good explanation for verbs like 持つ and 含む. for instance, when I want to convey a concrete meaning, then i can say 因子を持った子, but when it comes to generality, I should use因子を持つ子. 　that's also why the original text is 因子を持つ子。so maybe now i can understand better the nuance between挽肉を使った料理and 挽肉を使う料理. thank you for your kindness! – David XZY Dec 11 '17 at 09:32