21

I would like to know a bit more about the "ねば" grammatical construction. Every now and then, I hear people say sentences like

東京に行かねばならぬ

粘々丼を食べねば倒れる

なんとかせねばいい

It's quite clear that ねば means the same as なければ, but

  • Is it a shorten form of なければ, or a different construction?
  • Is it an old form, or something that has been around for 20 years or so?
  • Is its usage limited to some regions? ages? social classes?
  • How (in)formal is it?
  • Is it like なきゃ and なくちゃ? (as far as usage is concerned, not nuances)
Community
  • 1
Axioplase
  • 12,014
  • 29
  • 49
  • 5
    This isn't a complete answer, so I'm only commenting, but する in this form is せねば, not しねば. (I suppose this also suggests that it's not just a shortened form of なければ, as that uses し and not せ...) – Hyperworm Sep 08 '11 at 03:37
  • @hyperworm: I saw on google some "しねば" that were certainly *not* 死ぬ (precisely "なんとかしねば"), and thus I inferred that しねば was a possible form for する. It would be possible, since する has せろ/しよ too. – Axioplase Sep 08 '11 at 03:42
  • 1
    せねば is the standard form, but I think that しねば is used in some dialects. – Tsuyoshi Ito Sep 08 '11 at 13:29
  • 1
    「なんとかせねばいい」 sounds incorrect and makes little sense.. – Chocolate Jan 10 '18 at 12:20

1 Answers1

21

ねば can be divided into two parts:

  • ね, the 已然形 (realis) form of the Classical Japanese auxiliary verb ず
  • ば, basically the same as modern ば

So to answer your questions in detail (great format, by the way!):

  • It is a different construction -- actually なければ is a reinvention of the same concept (已然形 + ば) using modern parts!
  • It is a very old form, here it is in the Manyoshu: "... 君が目見ねば苦しかりけり" ("... Not seeing you (lit. your eyes), I suffer." -- note the use of the 已然形 was a bit different back then. This changed a few hundred years ago (IIRC) to something more like our usage)
  • I don't think its usage is especially limited except insofar as it is a bit of an archaism. (Note that the first two examples include ならぬ and 倒る, also archaisms.) I think most people would recognize it, but few would use it except for intentional effect (intentionally overformal speech as joke, etc.). However, this kind of pseudo-archaic talk is quite popular among certain internet circles, so it might be more common and "normal" there, and might have seeped out into real life from that point. I hope that someone else will be able to provide better info on this point.
  • As above, it is a bit of an archaism and so while not informal as such, it might be considered inappropriate or unusual in a case where standard Japanese was expected.
  • なきゃ and なくちゃ are normal standard Japanese, just informal (as you know of course), so it is not like them.
Matt
  • 10,004
  • 43
  • 57
  • 1
    Thanks! Great informative reply! I just want to say that the examples are mine. I chose "ならぬ" for fun, but I didn't know that 倒る was archaic! I don't know any other way to say "faint/collapse/fall down" :) – Axioplase Sep 08 '11 at 08:09
  • @Axioplase: The modern verb is 倒れる — note the okurigana! – Zhen Lin Sep 08 '11 at 11:38
  • 1
    Yeah, たおる is archaic (and maybe survives in some dialects? not sure), たおれる is the modern standard form. – Matt Sep 08 '11 at 12:30
  • In Old Japanese (maybe also Classical?), the 已然形【いぜんけい】 or "realis form" using the _-e_ stem (basically, "the action of the verb has happened") as ～えば meant "because ～". The modern sense of "if" that is often associated with the ～ば construction was instead expressed using the 未然形【みぜんけい】 or "irrealis form" using the _-a_ stem (basically, "the action of the verb hasn't happened yet") as ～あば to mean "if ～". – Eiríkr Útlendi Dec 12 '22 at 17:48
  • Example: 行【ゆ】けば → _"because you go"_ —— 行【ゆ】かば → _"if you go"_. Various poems in the [_Man'yōshū_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man'y%C5%8Dsh%C5%AB) make much better sense if you factor in this difference. – Eiríkr Útlendi Dec 12 '22 at 17:51