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For example, I was listening to a song, and the lyric 願いや野望や空想が知らない次元【レベル】へドアをたたいて came up. Don't you usually need to use a の to make 知らない次元へのドア or else 知らない次元へ might get confused as modifying たたいて? Because of this, I'm not really sure of the meaning of the lyrics.

senshin
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Joe
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    Related: http://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/17738/grammarwhat-is-the-meaning/17739#17739 –  Nov 20 '14 at 00:15
  • It's just fine when the sentence is complete, i.e. to add 向かう or 行く. → …空想が、知らない次元へ（ドアを叩いて）向かう・行く – user4092 Nov 20 '14 at 07:59

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You are right, this sentence is normally written in this way (Let's forget the furigana レベル for now):

知らない次元へのドアをたたく
knock at the door leading to the unknown dimension

And because "の" is omitted, I feel this 知らない次元へ actually modifies たたく. If it were not in the lyrics, I would say such wording is at least highly unnatural. (And I might also say that hope and dream don't usually knock at the door after all.)

社長室へのドアを叩いた: OK (not necessarily the final door of the president room)
社長室のドアを叩いた: OK (the (final) door of the president room)
社長室へドアを叩いた: Incorrect

But in lyrics, such things can happen in order to stay in a certain rhythm. The meaning of the lyrics itself doesn't change greatly, but it may be translated as something like "Toward the unknown dimension, knocking at the door," to emphasize the "adverbial" feeling.

naruto
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  • is it possible to interpret it by splitting it into 願いや野望や空想が知らない次元へ as one part, and ドアをたたく as the other part? The two parts wouldn't interact syntactically. For the front part, can it be analyzed as 願い/野望 are going towards 空想が知らない次元, with the traversal verb elided? – Flaw Nov 20 '14 at 03:11
  • Seeing the [original lyrics](http://www.jtw.zaq.ne.jp/animesong/so/otosimono/ring.html) and the way of breaking lines, I think it's 願いや野望や空想 that actually knocks at the door (and rings the bell) in this lyrics. "The dimension which is unknown to 空想" doesn't make sense to me in this context. – naruto Nov 20 '14 at 03:17
  • Well, I think "The dimension which is unknown to 空想" makes sense in that what lays beyond the door is far beyond their imagination. When you said,"But in lyrics, such things can happen in order to stay in a certain rhythm" that the の could have been dropped and you would use context for this? – Joe Nov 20 '14 at 07:17
  • @Joe A noun phrase "空想が知らない次元" sounds weird to me, although "空想が及ばない次元" or "空想が届かない次元" can be interpreted just as you suggested. And don't ignore the line breaks and [how this is sung](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwh400q5N2A). I'm certain that 願いや野望や空想 is the subject of 叩く and くれる, but not the subject of 知る and 羽ばたく. – naruto Nov 20 '14 at 07:52
  • After seeing the video and your comments, I agree with you, but I have just a few more questions to ask. I did a google search and came across http://www.vector.co.jp/soft/win95/net/se446687.html, which had どこかへドア which I thought should be どこかへのドア. Also, I came across 俺にもお茶を頼む while watching something else and wondered why you can use に to directly modify a noun without の but can't use へ. – Joe Nov 20 '14 at 08:19
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    俺にも modifies the verb 頼む, not お茶. You can omit the object and say 俺にも頼む. どこかへドア is surely funny in a complete sentence, but the author intentionally did that (presumably inspired by [どこでもドア](http://doraemon.wikia.com/wiki/Anywhere_Door)). You can't assume software names, song titles, poems and such always respect the 'proper' grammar, whether in English or Japanese. – naruto Nov 20 '14 at 10:39
  • But the context of 俺にもお茶を頼む was that he was requesting tea to be given to him. 俺にも頼む sounds like he's asking them to request tea from him. – Joe Nov 20 '14 at 20:57
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    This 頼む is a strong and dignified version of "please". He's saying "for me, too, (tea) please", not "request (tea) also from me". – naruto Nov 21 '14 at 01:10
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日本語で失礼します。 この場合は「ドアを叩く」を慣用句としてひとつの動詞としてみなすほうが、「叩く」を単独の動詞とするよりも自然な解釈になります。 「ドアを叩く」＝「進む・導く」のように置き換えられるので、「知らない次元へ導いて」となり、「の」を省略したとみなさなくても良くなります。 とはいえ、「～へのドアを叩く」と書くほうが一般的な表現です（その場合でも一つの動詞として見なせる）。

mtyk1
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  • なんで「と書くほうが一般的な表現です」って「書いたほう」と書かない？ – Joe Nov 20 '14 at 21:24
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    @Joe It'd probably make sense to ask about that in a separate question. – Darius Jahandarie Nov 20 '14 at 22:43
  • @Joe Both 書いたほうがいい and 書くほうがいい are acceptable. – isayamag Nov 21 '14 at 03:47
  • I'm for this interpretation. – user4092 Nov 22 '14 at 02:19
  • @Joe 「（多くの人にとって）～と書くほうが一般的」 is OK, but 「（多くの人にとって）～と書いたほうが一般的」is unnatural for me. 「あなたは～と書いた方がいい」 is OK, but 「あなたは～と書く方がいい」 is also unnatural for me. – mtyk1 Nov 22 '14 at 08:48