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Out of curiosity I looked up その in a monolingual dictionary, the first thing I see Is [連体]《代名詞「そ」+格助詞「の」から》What on earth is a "case marking particle"? Is this the の particle that simply means "of"?

So, if I were to translate it literally, a phrase like その上 would mean "above of that" "on top of that" while "その人" "person of that" Sounds like complete gibberish to me when I try to think of it that way though.

Tsuyoshi Ito
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user4096
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2 Answers2

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A 格助詞【かくじょし】 or "case-marking particle" is a particle that attaches to a noun form to mark how the word relates to the rest of the sentence or clause. There are several, including ~は, ~が, ~を, etc.

~の is a confusing one because there are several different particles all pronounced 「の」, but in this case, I believe it marks the genitive case, generally used for possession.

In this particular case, the given analysis of 《代名詞「こ」+格助詞「の」から》 is only applicable to Old Japanese, as 此【こ】 -- originally a pronoun (代名詞【だいめいし】) -- is no longer used by itself.

Now, この, その, あの, and どの are simply fully-fledged pronouns. (Incidentally, this is all basically true of the other suffixes originally attached to these pronoun bases, including これ, ここ, どっち, etc.)

rintaun
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    Related: [What does かの日 mean?](http://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/13052/78) – istrasci Oct 31 '13 at 17:15
  • I appreciate that they are fully fledge pronouns. But let's say I look up どの in a monolingual dictionary, I would get, どれの as the result, how else should I interpret that other than "of which"? – user4096 Oct 31 '13 at 17:52
  • どの and どれ are different words. A [monolingual dictionary entry for どの](http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/159743/m0u/%E3%81%A9%E3%81%AE/) does not list どれの as the result -- and I'm nearly certain that どれの is ungrammatical. – rintaun Oct 31 '13 at 18:15
  • どの is an abbreviation of どれ, just as この is an abbreviation of これの, どれの isn't any more ungrammatical than saying どこの国. Have a look: http://www.sanseido.net/User/Dic/Index.aspx?TWords=%u3069%u306e&st=0&DORDER=&DailyJJ=checkbox&DailyEJ=checkbox&DailyJE=checkbox You'll have to scroll down to the second link on the left hand side to get the exact definition. – user4096 Oct 31 '13 at 18:53
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    I think you're misunderstanding that entry. どの is most certainly **not** an abbreviation of どれの. That is simply attempting (poorly, in my opinion) to define どの. どれ and どの are two different demonstrative pronouns and are used in different ways. See the [Japanese Wikipedia entry for 指示語](http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%8C%87%E7%A4%BA%E8%AA%9E) for more information. – rintaun Oct 31 '13 at 19:21
  • Fair enough, but isn't どの in the same 連体詞 group as あの and the like? if those other three are all recognized as abbreviations, I don't know what would be so different about – user4096 Oct 31 '13 at 19:48
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    @user4096 I don't think the others are recognized as abbreviations. As far as I'm aware, they're lexicalized combinations of the words こ・そ・あ with the particle の. –  Oct 31 '13 at 19:58
  • Perhaps's I took tae kim's site too literally then, he made adamant that その and the like where abbreviation's of それの (and their counterparts). Either, way, like you say, it's combination of word for こそあど words with の – user4096 Oct 31 '13 at 21:11
  • @user4096 I think Tae Kim is mistaken. 岩波国語辞典 says 『もと、代名詞「そ」と助詞「の」との連語。』 and 大辞林 says 『代名詞「そ」に格助詞「の」が付いた語』. Shibatani writes in *The Languages of Japan*, p.258: "The deictic forms are etymologically analyzable as consisting of the locative nouns and the genitive particle *no* 'of', i.e. *sono* 'that' < *so-no*". –  Oct 31 '13 at 22:05
  • Tae Kim is more about teaching the language in a highly digestible fashion than coming up with a consistent theory for analysis of grammar, also. – bright-star Nov 02 '13 at 23:27
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Here's the skinny. あ, こ, and そ are each technically pronouns on their own. Usually we see them in conjunction with a particle. In this case, it's connected to the case marking particle (格助詞) "の". A case-marking particle is a particle that indicates the grammatical case, or basically the function of the thing it's modifying. So for example の can mark the genitive case (私の本 = my book). に can mark the locative case (日本に住んでいる = I live in Japan). を can mark the accusative case (ボールを投げた, where ball is the direct object). The wikipedia page talks about all the cases pretty clearly, and if you want to venture to the Japanese page on 格助詞 you can. At the very least you can see a list of the case marking particles.

So in あの・この・その we have our pronouns plus our case marker の. This forms what is called a 連体詞{れんたいし}, or a prenominal adjective. As you may be able to guess, it's an adjective that comes before a noun. This ~の form of 連体詞 is basically its own class that is the form of noun + 格助詞「の」. As per wikipedia: "本来は「名詞」+格助詞「の」だったものが多い。"

That might be a little more technical than what you want to hear. A shorter version is that yes, it is the "の that means 'of'," but you may want to stop trying to think of it in terms of its rough English translation, because it's exactly that: rough. It does not have the exact meaning of "of." You can think of it in terms of having that genitive kind of possessive-ish meaning, but try to separate it from English if you can. その人 isn't "person of that," but it's the pronoun そ which is modifying 人 in the genitive case. So which person? That person, the one I'm connecting to そ. In English we usually refer to の as a 'noun modification' particle, at least in educational materials I've seen, so try thinking of it like that. Sorry if it's hard to make the connection, but I hope you get it!

Ultimately, this grammatical distinction isn't that important. You won't see そ or あ or こ on its own as a pronoun anywhere, and I would assume nobody aside from linguists would actually think of them in terms of their constituent parts. For all intents and purposes, they are their own words that just happen to have a more grammatical history.

ssb
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  • A better translation than "of" might be English's "'s" possessive suffix. Both mark the genitive case. Not that anyone would **ever** want の to be translated like that. =/ – rintaun Oct 31 '13 at 17:21
  • The funny thing is that I don't have any trouble with actually using these pronouns, I'm just getting caught up in the semantics, really. Also you're right, It's difficult to think of it as "そ which is being modified by 人". When I think of it as anything other than "of" it feels like there is a hole in my brain where the comprehension should be. RE your last paragraph, I forgot to mention that on tae kim's site, he states that その あの and この are abbreviations of それの これの and あれの. Isn't that just functioning the same way as other pronouns like そこの and どこの? – user4096 Oct 31 '13 at 17:48